Friday, October 19, 2007
Chaos and Exit Strategy
In the ensuing chaos of the second blackhawk crash, reflect on the backup and rescue strategies of General Garrison. Where does he go wrong? How could he have improved upon the plan? Why didn't he have additional air support in place? How has the high experience of the D-boys and the limited experience of the Rangers contributed to miscommunication and lack of team work?
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Oh yeah First Post.
Well, in the choas, I dont think the americans thought th esammies could shoot down 1 Black hawk...Let alone two.
So when the second one went down, that put a big burden on not only the situation but the mood of the soldiers. Garrison sends in tow absolute HEROS into the fray. Sergent First Class Randy Shugart and Marjor Sergent Gary Gordon. Both of whom were Delta Snipers. Both were denied upon request to enter the site but after a persistent third request, they were granted permission. I think that was the right move, but garrison just came up a little short. I mean C'mon...2 Delta Snipers? Three Black Hawk Crew members? Durant was injured. Air support was non existent, the numbers were bad after the first Crash. The rangers were trapped for the night.
Doorstop Out.
The choas involving the US turns out to be pretty dramatic. The first black hawk down created some, but the second crash is when they really began to freak. The soldiers had to think of a way to fix or recover what had been happening. The soldiers start to doubt themselves and there strategies though.
Garrisons move was alright but he should have planned it a little more. Even though there wasn't very much time he still could have put a little more thought into it.
The rangers hadn't expected a real fight from the sammies. They were expecting to be in and out in less than an hour. The rangers had underestimated the sammies. They had more strategy than the rangers thought. They knew that shooting down a black hawk would be fatal to the rangers because they do not leave anyone behind. They will risk their lives to go in and save their dead friends. The sammies knew this and they also knew that the rangers, unlike the sammies, wouldn't be willing to risk their lives as fast.
I think when the first black hawk went down would have caused more chaos than the second hawk going down. Americans assumed these iron birds to be indestructable. For the second one they at least knew that it was a possible.
Garrison didn't send in enough help to rescue the second black hawk crash victims. The Somali's have succeeded in inflicting major damage upon the American's. Since we underestimated the power of the Somali's we were unprepared for all of the events that took place causing chaos and bad decisions. Even though Garrison didn't have much time to make his decision he should have sent more rescuers.
I think that General Garrison wasnt as prepared for this as he should have been, because he thought that it was just going to be a snatch and grab mission, and that they were going to be in and out of there in less than an hour. He should have had more rescue teams ready for the fight, and he should have had some more experienced D boys working with the rangers to even things out more. He should also have rethinked the way he gives and receives commands, because there was a big delay.
Garrison did not have additional air support because they had never encountered any problems in their previous battles, so there wasn't any reason for anything to happen now. The rangers were inexperienced and over confident that lead to miscommunication and mistakes.
The Americans assumed that the misfortune of the first Black Hawk crash was pure luck on the part of the Sammies, but when the second one came down, the Americans were "freaking out". The actions of General Garrison is less than I wanted to happen. He sent in two snipers... yea... that will DEFINATELY help a downed crew. I mean, granted they are some of the best in their field. I do give him credit for at least doing SOMETHING in the midst of all the chaos.
Lack of teamwork is not entirely contributed to the Rangers' teamwork within themselves, more like the lack of teamwork from the D-boys and the Rangers trying to work together.
So definitely the chaos came from the two downed helicopters , but also from the chain of command. Some times to much leadership leads to confusion. I think that contributed to the a lot of the chaos. The fact that the second crash was not given enough support was there was no body to support them. They didn’t even think it was possible to take down on of the birds let a lone two. I also don’t think that the experience gap in the two forces was a problem, the men were just out of control, and scared.
So having one Black Hawk go down is pretty severe.Thinking their practically invincible to enemy fire is over estimating just a bit much.Then goes down the second.Everyone turns to a state of panic and begins mad rushing to help the crews.In all the chaos and confusion to many people are giving orders on where to go.The situation thier in its pretty understandable that their was confusion.Garrison should have been on the ball though and called in it what he needed WHEN he needed them.So all he gets is two snipers,at their best of coarse,but is it enough?
The "strategy" employed is a beautiful exemplification of a plan that is inevitably doomed. When pieces of a puzzle are missing or damaged, the picture cannot retain its definition, thus it cannot be whole. This applies to military operations as well. If a communication conflict exists, then the battle cannot be effectively fought. When the strongest, most intimidating weapons of the Americans are being shot out of the sky like kites, there is going to be some fear in the environment. General Garrison's fatal mistake of combining young, inexperienced boys, with hard, thoroughly experienced killers to complete the mission was asinine. I believe the situation could have been better handled had the U.S. been prepared to respond to such an occurrence. (In this case, the downfall of two Black Hawk helicopters).
well the americans thought that the black hawks were the best things on earth and that they were close to "unbeatable". but come to find out they shot down the 2 black hawks which left soldiers and pilots in danger. also they were stuck there for a night i belive it was due to the miscommunication because no one was on the same page.
Throughtout all the fighting the chaos gets more intense as more and more Somalis join the militia. When the first Black Hawk went down the Rangers were in disbelief. They knew it would be a big target for the enemy and they had to get their quick. There plan goes terribly wrong throughout all the miscommunication and in the end a second Black Hawk goes down. This sends panic through even some of the best soldiers. They all just want to go home to their families instead of being in hell . This lowers morale fast. If only Garrison had better planning and stronger backup ready to go.
First off, Garrison made a bad decision by sending in a black hawk to rescue one person when it's evident that RPGs will take the helicopter down in no time. If they had sent in perhaps a bigger rescue team than just two, it may have gone more smoothly. However, the excellent skills of the D boys versus the not nearly as excellent skills of the Rangers conflict because the D boys expect the Rangers to follow their complex tactics.
I think that they went wrong because they weren't planning on having a helicopter go down, and then when one did they only had one rescue team, and the ground convoy went the wrong way. I think it was because of bad communication and not being prepared for the worst.
The americans thought that the it was hard to shoot down even one black hawk, so when they heard that two were down and needed rescue, it put them into a state of panic. Garrison should have sent in another rescue team for the second black hawk.
I think that the over confadent general under estamated the people in the town and his own men. when the first black hawk whent down the rangers panic to save serviver and distroy the rest of the bird.but when the secont bird whent down all seemed to mentaly throw in the towl.thare planing in the end was the biggest down fall
Garrison could have been more prepared. They should not have relied on the assumption that the missions were just going to be a cake walk like the previous ones. Also the Rangers and D-boys couldn't work well together because the way the were trained to function in battle was completely different.
General Garrison should've sent more men to rescue the downed chopper. Sending only two men was a very stupid idea. What did he think they could do. But i guess it would be better then sending in a bunch of hawks because the sammies have RPG's around every corner.
general garrison was not thinking ahead and in the event that a black hawk goes down their would be a rescue teams in place to provide support. the d-boys considered the rangers to be useless and the rangers were scared to mess up in front of the d-boys.little to no communication was conceived.
I agree with mostly everyone else on how sure they had prepared for the rare condition that a Black Hawk was downed but when the second went down that is when panic really ensued. Also between the D-boys having tons of experience and the Rangers not as much it creates a sense of confusion and so the Rangers start to panic with the first few deaths and the D-boys get annoyed with the panicky Rangers. The best thing probably would have been maybe another airborne rescue team or two.
I concur with Trevor and Jesse.
Well i think that the american rangers really underestimated the sammies. Because there alot better then they thought they were. The sammies knew that if they shot down one of their blackhawks then that would get them ahead because the americans never leave a soldier behind
I so was J K'ing with you Mr Sinks. General Garrison did not think ahead of his mission; and he was not well prepared for emergencies that occured during the battle. He could have thought ahead and followed the recommended procedure. He was afraid that the other air support would get shot down as well. The D Boys considered the Rangers to be inexperienced so the D-Boys didn't want the Rangers help.
The Americans should have been way more prepared with their rescue teams, but the whole battle was just a mess and obviously not thought out very well. Since they were not prepared in any way, the way they could improve the rescue team would be to improve their preparation overall. Some of the D-Boys think of the Rangers as newbies who have no clue what they are doing, while really, most of them don't know what they are doing and are becoming dead weight. Since the two teams don't work together most of the time, they are having horrible teamwork and communication.
Well i dont think that the Americans thought that the sammies could shoot down a Black Hawk so there was some chaos and doubt there but then when they heard that a second Black Hawk got shot down they all freaked out and they totally started to doubt what they were doing and if their stratgies were good enough any more to be were they are at and not be ready for what is coming against them.
I think that General Garrison could of thought about the strategie a little more because i think that he should of sent in a bigger rescue team and that they should of had some way of getting out of there because they all knew that it was pretty much impossible to get out of there in a Black Hawk because of all the gun fire and th RPG's flying around everywhere.Eventhough there really wasent much time to think about the mission, but, that is also way they are trained to be able to think that way and to be able to react in a short amount of time.
Also that they knew that the numbers were terribly off because of the first crash so they knew that they were in for it and sending in two snipers and the three Black Hwak crew members already there they knew something was going to go wrong and having no way for them to get out of it was just stupid of them, because they pretty much sent them in to die.
The whole situation was just a told mess. No body was communicating in a effective way, General Garrison deffinetly should have sent more then 2 men to the crashed black hawk, and the rangers were hardly prepaird for the situation. Seemed like they just winged the whole event and no one thought anything completely through.
well wat i thought was that the whole thing were the men on the ground cant talk directly to the spy planes takes up valueble time
the americans didnt think that they could shoot down the black hawk so it caused a huge chaos when they shot down two.
i dont think that Garrison had plans on if the black hawk got shot down and after one got shot down he was making ok decision but then when the second got shot down i think he was overwhelmed and making decision that werent all that great
Well, the mission was going fine util the second black hawk crashed. They didn't have any back up and were in trouble. So Garrison sent backup and luckily they got out of it. But if I were Garrison, I probably would have had a better back up plan set up because you never know what can happen.
When the second black hawk crashed, the JOC and Gen. garison did not have a contingincy plan for the exraction of the second black hawk yet alone the first. The delta snipers Gordon and Shugart were brave knowing that there most likely going to be there when a long period of time before any relief would come, they became the QRF for the second crash. What Gen.garison screwed up by leting his men do want they want and give them what they needed to do the job. The lack of communication through the soldiers was caused by combat experience. The ones who lack the experience would hesitate and would follow orders slowly. If a soldier was to hesitate in combat or cunduct commands slow, it would result in KIA's or WIA's or both.
first of all anything that goes wrong in action isn't anyones fault.
Reason Air support wasn't able to help was because it would have been to dangerous plus there wasn't any room to land the chopppers. All i got to say about the rangers and D-boys situation is that they better start working together or they ain't getting out of there alive.
General Garrison should've sent more men to rescue the helicopter. He should of sent more than 2 men. I think he was overwhelmed because 2 black hawks were shot down when he thought they couldnt be. I guess sending 2 men is better than nothing because if air support came they would of been shot down to.
I believe General Garrison was very foolish and stuborn in this situation. He over estimated his men, thus sending less men and help into the mission. It seems to be an on-going thought or assumption that it is close to impossible to bring down a Black Hawk, and when two are brought down everything falls apart with them. It also didn't help the chaotic situation that the Rangers didn't have all the knowledge that the D-boys did so that just created more confusion. It astonished me that General Garrison only sent in two snipers. How will two snipers help the downed crew? To me it seems like General Garrison hesitated too much on what to do after the second helicopter went down. It was like he had never considered that happening so he had NO clue what-so-ever on how to help the situation and his men. During this time, there was also little to no communication and that is the single most important thing to have when at war. This mission was a complete and unnecessary failure.
I agree with Chris Edwards. There was not additional air support because they had not had any problems on their previous missions and they thought that they were flawless and invincible. I think General Garrison's biggest mistake was just that... being over confident. When the D-boys and the Rangers are given even simple tasks like moving positions... things go way wrong. The reason for this is the D-boys think that they are too good for instruction and the Rangers are looking for instruction. So when orders are given, some of the Rangers try to follow them, the D-boys do whatever they want, and some of the Rangers try and do what the D-boys are doing.
I think that General Garrison could have done a better job by calling more people to the second crash site. Besides the fact that no one was well prepared for this battle, the rescue team really wasnt prepared. They had not been expecting one let alone two black hawks to go down. I think that Garrison should have sent more people to the second crash site rather than sending everyone to the first. He should have done that because everyone could already tell that by the way the first hawk crashed, there were probably no survivors. On the other hand, i see where he was coming from by sending his men to the first crash site just to get everyone out of the helicopter so the sammies couldnt do anything bad to them.
he goes wrong when he doesnt understand how big the rebel forces are. after the attack they all got up to fight the americans. he could have assembled a bigger force to secure the perimeter and been more careful with the helicopters. the two separate branches havnt been together very long so there are miscommunications and confusion with who is in charge
general garison should've had more air support to help out but the americans weren't expecting souch strong soldiers from samalia. The D-boys were able to proove that they were the best ones because the rangers weren't as smart as they were and they could fight a lot better.
I think that they went wrong because they weren't planning on having a helicopter go down, and then when one did they only had one rescue team, and the ground convoy went the wrong way. I think it was because they didnt have good communication and they werent prepared for the worst.
General Garrison could have done a lot more to prevent chaos. First he never should have under estimated the Somalis even if our equipment and training was far better then theirs. If there are american soldiers lives on the line how can you over prepare? The cockyness and overall attitude of General Garrison caused many soldiers to be lost. When the second Blackhawk went down i think it caused many soldiers to give up hope because they never dreamed that one helicopter let alone two would be shot down. The unexperienced D-boys seemed to weigh down the Rangers which made the situation even more chaotic. I think General Garrison could have done a lot more to get troops to the shot down choppers and to keep his units calm after the Blackhaws got shot down.
i think everything started to go wrong is when the firts black hawk went down because that got every one to forget what they were doing and help the 1st one...then when the 2end one went down it just mad everyhing worse and when i say worse i mean really really bad...i think garrison should have sent more soldiers for this mission..
The fact that the first Black Hawk went down really put the soldiers in an upset. The second one had to be total killer...their mood was at a total downfall, almost like it was the end. They might have thought they it was going to be a complete easy mission....it wasnt.
So, Garrison should have called in right away....got more people than two snipers, come on...two? This is really serious people, you might want to consider more backup than that. They needed way more airs upport than that of what they had....3 Black Hawks and 4 in support.....next time lets get somemore people...again seriously.
When the second blackhawk crashed, General Garrison sent in two delta snipers, Gordon and Shugart, to secure the crash site. He did this because there wasn't enough time for the rangers and D-boys to extract whoever still remained at crash site one and haul butts over to the second crash site before the angry mobs of Sammies got there. I think Gen. Garrison screwed up by not supplying enough air support to the second crash site even though he didn't ahve any air suport to spare. Now if there were more than just one CSAR unit, then maybe the second crash site could have stood a chance against the mob. Lack of team work within the Chalks contributed to the down fall of the opperation from limited experience from the rangers(Newbs) and their lack of communication with the D-boys who could use hand signals for orders which all screwed up the coordination of the operation.
The rangers didn't expected a real war from the sammies. They thought that it was'nt going to take long and no ranger was going to be killed, especially so many. The sammies had more strategy than the rangers. They knew that shooting down a black hawk would be fatal to the rangers because theywould'nt leave a ranger behind. They rangers would risk their lives to get the bodies of their teamates.
The U.S.' overconfidence lead to chaos and confusion of what they thought would be a quick and easy mission. They never expected that the Somali's could have shot down one, let alone two, of their blackhawks. General Garrison was not prepared for this to happen. He should have sent more rescue teams before the somalis had a chance to do so much damage. He didnt want to put additional air support in place because there was now the possibility of those being shot down as well.
General Garrison should have planned out his stragedy better, so the mission would have been more effective and gone smoother. There should have been more air support when the black hawk crashed.
I believe that everything came down to overconfidence on the U.S's part. Not smart. They thought that the Black Hawks were indistructable so when one whent down there moral went down. Now imagine when the 2nd whent down they just started doubting. And thats defenitly not good in war.
Garrisons plan was ok but he needed a little bit more planing.
I think that General Garrison wasn't as prepared for this as he should have been, because he thought that it was just going to be a in and out mission taking less than an hour. He should have more rescue teams ready,and he should have tried to get rid of the delay while he was issuing commands.
Well, in the choas, I dont think the americans thought the somalies could shoot down 1 Black hawk they were right they shot down two.
when the second one went down, it put a greater strian on only the situation they were already in and also how the soldiers felt. Sergent First Class Randy Shugart and Marjor Sergent Gary Gordon. Both were Delta Snipers. they were denied upon request to enter the site but after a persistent third request, they were granted permission. I think that was okkay... but garrison might of come up a little short. I mean 2 Delta Snipers? and Three Black Hawk Crew members, a whole citty of sammies, and Durant was injured. Air support was "inuse" , the numbers were down after the first Crash. The rangers were trapped for the night tierd.annnd...Oh yea... I almost forgot NO NIGHT VISION.
I guess I concure with door stop!!
I believe that no one was really ready for the situation that they were put in. Everyone thought that they would have just got in and out, no one was expecting that a black hawk was going to go down, but not just one went down two of them did. I don’t think that general garrison was expecting any of this to happen, he was not looking ahead and he suffered the consequences. a lot of men died then there should have but that is what happens when people decide to try and play hero but sometimes its necessary.
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